Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk

Emily Balistrieri and I had the rare opportunity to interview the founders of BioWare, Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk, the minds behind Baldur’s Gate, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire and Mass Effect about BioWare’s upcoming titles, as well as experience the almost tangible passion and curiosity that they have for making games, discussing the future of narrative and even their opinions on characters that break the fourth wall such as Psycho Manits.  It’s a unique look into the thought process of two visionaries, so if you’re into BioWare or ever want to create a game yourself, please read and enjoy.

Emily Balistrieri: So tell us something that you didn’t tell anyone else.

Ray Muzyka: At this stage it’s hard to remember what you told anyone.

EB: Yeah, it’s true. It’s been all day.

RM: We could just start talking randomly…

Greg Zeschuk: That’s a dangerous question because sometimes we say random and crazy things.

EB: Hey, random and crazy works.

Jonathan Zungre: So yeah, what are you guys excited for in the future of BioWare?

RM: I think our best work is still ahead of us. I really believe that. Like, I think all our games are very different. I’m really happy with our portfolio because it’s quite diverse. Like, you look at Dragon Age — it’s a different kind of fantasy; it’s dark heroic fantasy. It’s going to be very differentiated from all the other kinds of fantasy that you’ve seen before, especially from us. It’s a more mature, gritty kind of world, choices with consequences, and we’re not pulling any punches, basically.

And then Mass Effect. Mass Effect 2, it’s a refinement of everything we did in the past on Mass Effect, but we’re really taking on all the challenges that we wanted to solve based on feedback after the original game. So we’re really addressing the shooter aspects of the game and amping the intensity moment to moment in terms of the action. Also tightening the exploration and making that a much more important part of the game; even though it’s optional still, it’ll actually enhance your main story experience and we’re making it feel very intense. You can grab control of the action more, even in conversations, things like that. I think people are going to see Mass Effect 2 as a real revolution compared to the first one, which got a lot of acclaim, but the second one I think is that much better again.

The Old Republic is something again very different — it’s an MMO in the Star Wars universe, and we’re very excited about that. And then beyond that we have a couple things that — a couple few things actually — that aren’t announced yet that we’re excited about too that are actually different from any of these products, different in the setting, target audience, business model, the genre, the gameplay, some are more of those different aspects. So I’m just very excited about all those things because I think they’re all cool in different ways. I love playing them all. They’re all unified by the story, by the vision of emotional engagement, but beyond that they’re all quite diverse and different.

JZ: Expand on that emotional engagement concept, because I’m a big BioWare fan, and I feel that you guys do story and character interactions very well, perhaps because of that emotional engagement. If you could, tell me a little more about that.

GZ: Yeah absolutely, that’s really our ultimate goal. As a company, we sort of describe ourselves as building story-driven entertainment, but there’s a reason behind that, and the reason is to try and emotionally engage the player. We sit back and go, “Imagine a world’ where technology is a commodity, so no longer are we competing on, “Hey, who’s got the best engine and the most characters on the screen?” What are you going to compete on? Well, grabbing the player and getting their attention. And our feeling in a lot of ways is that story is one of the best tools for that. I mean, action can do that sometimes, but story is the area we’ve decided to really focus on.

RM: And the broader definition of that, maybe, is narrative. Story is one form of narrative, but there are other kinds, too.

GZ: And I think, well if you’d like to talk about that..

JZ: Yeah, what do you mean by that?

GZ: Yeah, talk about narrative. You can do your narrative discussion.

RM: Ok, sure. I’m kinda passionate about narrative.

PR: He can go on for a half an hour, just so you know. ;D

All: Ha!

RM: *unclear* But I think there are different kinds of narratives in games, and story and voice over and dialogue are one form of narrative but they’re by no means the only or the best, necessarily. They’re one of the things we pursue — and we certainly made it a focus for BioWare — but there are other equally valid ways to express story.

You can look at a pure action or sports game, and there’s a narrative there based on the choices you make and the moment to moment responses of the other team, the other player, or whatever. If it’s a boxing game, it could be the narrative of combat or boxing moment to moment in a three minute round, or whatever. You look at the back and forth of the engagement: ducks, you know, punches, and so on. There’s a narrative in that, too.

There’s a narrative of an explorer, too. Like in a game like Dragon Age or Mass Effect or The Old Republic, where you’re going from world to world or area to area and you’re unlocking new events or areas in the game, and you feel like you’re an explorer. So you get that sense of discovery and awe that you’re the first person in the world or the universe to be there representing humanity, or representing your Grey Wardens in Dragon Age, or whichever group.

And there’s a social narrative outside games which is also compelling. You see people playing the Wii — they’re interacting with the game, but they’re also interacting with each other as a social narrative like three to four people playing together. And there’s a narrative in a game like Dragon Age where we have community. People are making content with user generated content tools, sharing content amongst themselves, downloading content from us, interacting on the forums, interacting on other sites, and that’s a form of narrative, too, but it’s sort of a narrative outside the game.

And the whole narrative, moment to moment what you do: do you do exploration or combat, progression, or story? And what order you do them and where you go — there’s a narrative there so it’s almost like your life journey is a narrative, too, as your character or your characters.

GZ: And to add a point to the discussion *unclear* It’s interesting because we chose to make multidimensional games, and what I mean by that is our games support these different types of narratives, flipping between them rapidly so your actual overall player narrative for the whole experience is quite varied. In a lot of games — in a driving game, which is just driving, it’s narrow right? The emotional engagement you’ll receive from a driving game is much less than one where you’re able to do a lot more stuff and experience a lot more things so there’s a complexity that goes up, but there are also benefits. Like you look at GTA and GTA did a lot of stuff.

RM: They’re approaching the problem from a different direction, but it’s the same endpoint, or a similar end point.

GZ: And they wanted you to be emotionally engaged in the character. They do so much stuff that it’s easy to get distracted and drive off the story path, but we try to keep the player focused on that, and very goal oriented, but allowing them to do a lot of stuff, and keeping them engaged and excited about what their next thing is.

JZ: What narrative are you guys most passionate about? Are you most passionate about the main story line or the different quests, trying to direct the narrative? Or are you more passionate about letting the player almost create their own based upon where they go or how they explore?

RM: The last thing you said feels to me like the most–

GZ: Yeah, the non-linear storytelling.

RM: Because the story is certainly part of that, but even that’s not linear. Then of course bigger narrative is moment to moment like Greg said, you can kinda weave your way through the world and do some combat, go back to that area that you couldn’t get past before and keep butting your head against it until you finally break through or go to progress your character for a bit first and then go back and take on that tough enemy. Or explore the world and see if you can find some items to give you more capabilities, or try to drive the story forward a bit more and get some more quests so you can find more stuff to do that’s cool.

We call these things activity chains, going back and forth between different activity types, but that’s the meta-narrative that really is the essence of our game. Even if story and character interaction is one of the parts we’re known best for — it’s the easiest one probably, just to see, “Oh, BioWare makes games with characters that we find compelling, emotionally engaging, who you want to travel the world with,” but our games are more than that. They’re the story of the explorer, the story of combatants, or conflict, and the story of progression and customization of your character, too — making the character that you want to actually have with you on your journey.

JZ: Why do you guys do so many RPGs? What is it about an RPG that’s really compelling for you guys? IS it that progression?

GZ: It’s because you can mix all the ingredients in. It’s not limited. It’s funny because when you get a whole bunch of game developers together, they’ll often naturally fall into — like when they say, “Oh, I’d love to make this game,” they almost always describe an RPG. When it’s sports: “Oh, I’d love to make a football game where you’re a high school football player, where you have to live at the school, interact with people there, progress your career,” well, you just described an RPG. We’re not trying to say, “Well, they’re the absolute best,” but it’s just when you really want to create one of those experiences that just grabs you and never let’s you go, it seems like…

RM: I think they’re the broadest in terms of potentiality or possibility space.

EB: Well, it’s like meeting a goal that’s further than just grabbing the flag at the end of the level in a platformer, or something. You want to have more emotional impact than that.

RM: Yeah, and do more things or have different dimension of growth. It’s almost the journey is more important than the endpoint. And our games are all about the journey; they’re about the heroic journey, or the conflicted journey. There are different journeys you can take as a character, but RPGs are more about the journey, and the narrative is the journey, your personal narrative. You travel through the world, you travel your character progression, you go through different battles, and try different tactics — some succeed some don’t, or social narrative.

GZ: The journey of becoming a professional football player. It’s funny because it still is a journey.

In “Football RPG” Troy Palomalu appears as a Level 70 Warrior.

RM: Yeah, that could be an RPG. And it probably would have to have playing football as part of that, and that’s the combat analog, right? But then you have to progress your character or level them up, whatever way you want to describe that that makes sense contextually.

EB: Prom king!

GZ: There you go.

RM: And you’d have to have cheerleaders, and prom –sure you’d have to have all that there too.

JZ: The rival…

EB: Are you guys making a football RPG? ;D

RM: No no, but it would be cool.

EB: It would be cool. You could do it!

RM: But I would argue almost any lifetstyle, any journey you can imagine, or any heroic attribute you’d want to aspire to — it’s aspirational fantasy. Any role you can aspire to, basically, you could make into an RPG. That might actually be kind of a fun panel to be on, where you have a bunch of people who make games to kinda like–

GZ: Make this into an RPG.

RM: Yeah.

GZ: The Dance Dance Revolution RPG.

RM: Yeah, Blizzard, Bethesda, BioWare, Square — get some guys that make RPGs together and kinda…

GZ: Theorize.

EB: So you just mentioned Bethesda. I saw a guy from Bethesda today talking, and he was saying that even though they make RPGs that are really text heavy, he’s really interested in the possibilities of expressing really emotionally engaging narrative without so much text, and I’m wondering — everyone loves your writing and stuff– but I’m wondering if you think about that, too, and how to do that.

RM: Well, you look at a game like BioShock as an example of another group I respect a lot, and we were talking earlier how their narrative is as much how the world interacts with you or reflects your actions.

GZ: The world itself, how you perceive it.

RM: And that’s a form of narrative too, sort of an explorer’s journey, but really showing your actions reflected in the world. And not as much dialogue in that game. There’s some you know, because you’re interacting with people, and it’s how you communicate with other people.

EB: Yeah, you need some dialogue.

RM: To the extent it feels natural and appropriate, it’s good, but you don’t want to have too much.

GZ: It’s hard…To create that emotional engagement, you have to communicate some way, whether it’s some sort of picture or pictographs.

EB: Well, and then you have some of the indie developers who are talking about creating really engaging emotional experiences with barely any narrative at all, and almost using mechanics themselves as the feeling.

GZ: And are they succeeding, though, really?

EB: There…are some examples.

GZ: I know what you mean.

EB: You know, the art games. It’s an interesting space. It’s not the same thing at all, but–

GZ: No, I totally agree. I think that’s the thing, is that’s actually a neat place to aspire to. When you pull it back, though, the interesting thing is, I think Portal (this is last year’s story winning game [Ed. note: Actually, Portal won Best Game in 2008, among other things. BioShock won for Writing.]) when you think about it there are actually like…the computer’s talking to you, there’s writing and information, so communication has to happen for story to occur. Whether the communication is physical, structural, auditory — it has to have some level of communication. And that’s the interesting thing, because I guess that’s where the mechanics might never really accomplish it, because if the mechanics can’t in some way communicate something like purpose or goals, then it’s hard to achieve it.

RM: You have to substantiate the feelings in some way and then ultimately you have to convey them.

GZ: But it’s theoretically possible. And we look at it, we look at it from the perspective of–the Half Life stuff is another example. They did certain things that sort of create story in a very limited way. And then Portal was interesting because clearly there was something going on. The way they told it made you suspicious and then you started watching for story. It’s kind of funny because you can kind of tune the user to to certain behaviors and once you do that, they then react. That’s part of the fun of making games.

EB: It’s interesting to see how just much you can strip out and still have the narrative.

RM: It’s a good exercise, isn’t it? I mean, when you can always, before you implement it, consider alternative forms of narrative. Almost like, what’s your other option? And then you get a nice balanced experience that will never feel overweighed in one category of communication.

JZ: What about relationships? Mass Effect had a big relationship part of it. Where do you guys feel like you’re going with that?

RM: That’s a good way to characterize it, because it’s not about having a sex scene or, you know, like Fox and some of the groups characterized it –actually that was taken out of context. It was more about– again, that’s a journey as well, where you have characters that you start to care about, and you want to invest the time to actually try and–just like in real life — you want to have a friend, and maybe that blossoms into a romance or something.

But you know we tried to do it in a way that was appropriate, and we’ve never shied away from it. It’s been in every Bioware game to date– people may not realize that. We’ve had romances in every BioWare game pretty much since Baldur’s Gate.

GZ: Except for Shattered Steel and MDK2.

RM: Well, Shattered Steel was before and MDK2, yeah, there aren’t enough characters…but Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights, KotOR, Jade, Mass Effect…

GZ: And I think the interesting thing is that other characters make your existence worthwhile in games, on some level. It’s actually those interactions which are really rewarding and interesting. You guys saw the demo, yet?

JZ: Yeah.

GZ: So you’ve seen the approval system. We’ve tried to personalize [it]–we’ve always sort of measured the characters’ behavior, and instead of creating a general metaphysical scale, it’s now, what does everyone think of you?

RM: Individually, because that’s the way it works in real life, where people have opinions and you can influence those opinions. And sometimes changing one character’s opinion might change another character’s opinion, so, you know, it isn’t always as simple as it might seem. But that’s the way real life works, too.

JZ: As opposed to dark side/light side.

RM: Yeah. It’s a more nuanced form of approval.

The progression of character alignment in BioWare games from KOTOR to Mass Effect.

GZ: And we’re always trying to play around in different ways in the space. It’s always fun to try these different things. We haven’t quite done this approval system so overtly — this is the most overt we’ve done it. But again, back in Baldur’s Gate we used to do that.

But I was going to add another point about the relationships and the romances and all those things. It’s funny because in a lot of ways that’s become a very dominant part of what people are concerned about when they play our games. They’re always making sure that, “Ok, what am I doing? Am I covering my romance bases?” or whatever and we actually always ask gamers, “Is this important?” and they, “No no no,” but if you would track their behavior, you would see that actually, no, they’re spending considerable effort and time to support that, just because it’s a meta-game, right?

RM: We make it feel like its appropriate — it’s never gratuitous. It’s there to actually recognize the time you’ve invested in developing relationships. There’s an endpoint. It’s worthwhile. You’ve made something that endures.

JZ: Very cool. Now, you guys have gone to space a couple times, and you’re doing Dragon Age, but is there a place or something that you guys really like? Where are we going next? What’s the next setting? Just generally speaking, what really turns you guys on?

GZ: I think a celebrity dance show. Apparently those are very popular now. The kids just love those.

JZ: You can make a narrative from anything!

RM: Actually it sounds like a football RPG is where we should go…

JZ: Or boxing, I like what you said about boxing.

GZ: Again, they all work, right? It’s a little scary. I hate to say it, but that dancing thing could easily be done. Like you know, a Dance Dance Revolution mechanic with, you know, “Are you going to make it to ‘Dancing with the Stars?’”

RM: We’re NOT doing those.

GZ: For the record…

RM: But some of the things we haven’t announced yet are different settings, totally different than Dragon Age or Mass Effect.

GZ: And it’s not the circus either.

JZ: That’s cool, as well. And after this conversation I feel like we could do it anywhere.

RM: We could.

GZ: The beard, the progression of the bearded lady.

JZ: Where does your love for narrative come from? What did you guys grow up with? What books did you read? What shows did you watch? What games did you play?

RM: I read everything. I would go to the library as a little kid (6, 7, 8, 9, 10, probably) and I would go home with a stack of books from down here all the way to the top of my head, twenty books kinda thing. I would go home carrying these books, and the librarians never believed I would read them all, but I was like, “Yeah, I read every one.” I don’t know, I just liked reading a lot. So for me, it came from science fiction., fantasy, sort of the classics. I still have a weakness for the classics of science fiction/fantasy, so now I’m collecting them all kinda one by one, trying to get first editions or signed copies. Got a lot of my favorites, so…

GZ: Well it’s funny because on the games side–well, I did the same thing, tons and tons of books…

RM: And then after that came the games.

GZ: Yeah, I’ll flip it to the game side. The the game side’s funny because we go back all the way to the early 80s, even the late 70s, which is scary, but games like Wizardry — and Ray’ll know exactly when I say this phrase, “The wizard is in.”

RM: Beep beep beep!

GZ: Yeah it’s very exciting like *gasp*

RM: I have that game on my PDA, by the way.

Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981)

GZ: [Unclear] So what was interesting is that these were games that were RPGs that were so story-light, like there were like 3-4 written lines in the entire–so one of them was a “Monster allocation center” just written on a sign.

RM: Or there was that line of text–your warning to the dark area as well. You have this text and the smoke and the fire and it teleports you away, remember?

GZ: So there’s literally like 5-8 lines of text in this entire game and you would hang on them. Like, “What does that mean? Who’s that guy? Why did he teleport me? What’s gong on?”

RM: And I got so frustrated about that. They never did explain that.

GZ: No, it’s just random probably…but you don’t realize how much of a grip these things can have on you. So you don’t have to have a really in your face kind of experience.

RM: That game actually was a great example of something — like you believed you were in this dungeon that had very little story in it, and you actually believed the mad wizard of the proving grounds of Trebor was your nemesis and you had to go down all these levels of dungeons to defeat him.

EB: And it’s really all just in your head.

GZ: Yeah, it actually was all in your head.

RM: It was player fiction. And an example of that player fiction outside of games, is what we’ve done recently with Mass Effect 2. We released that trailer, right, where we created a lot of interesting buzz and controversy. “But what does this mean? Is Shepard dead?” Well, I mean, everything we showed in the trailer there was absolutely true; everything we said before was true as well, in terms of you have to keep your save games, and we have plans for a trilogy, continuity — everything we said in both of those is true. So what’s in the middle? It’s a surprise, it’s a tease for the fans. But that’s an example of player fiction, too.

JZ: One more question? I wanted to know what you guys thought about a game breaking the fourth wall — between the game and the player? Much like some of the Metal Gear Solid games did where they tell you to turn off the controller–

Literally everyone in the room: Psycho mantis!

JZ: Is there any value in that for you, where you connect the actual player sitting in his room with his controller to another type of narrative?

GZ: Hmm, that almost breaks it, though.

RM: Works better in contemporary science fiction types of things.

GZ: Another one is kind of Eternal Darkness.

JZ: The bugs and the blood, yeah.

RM: I remember that I was really low on ammo one time and I got one of those, what do you call them?

GZ: Events? Crazy events?

RM: No, but they had a name for it in Eternal Darkness. Anyway, there was a room full of bullets, like bullets everywhere. I was kinda running around like in the Simpsons, “Bullets! Ahhh! Bullets!” picking up bullets. Then you run out of the room and it’s like, “Haha!”

GZ: See I don’t know if we would do that. Because I don’t think we want to create this incredibly intricate world and all this stuff, and then just destroy that linkage.

EB: But it’s almost sometimes, like with Psycho Mantis — it’s the example…

[Unclear]: It’s the classic example.

EB: But when you realize what’s going on you feel this crazy like–you’re REALLY connected.

RM: Well, you feel emotion. LIke, you messed with me.

JZ: You feel violated almost–

EB: Well no, it’s exciting. Wow, a game, I didn’t expect that.

JZ: But not necessarily negatively. It KNOWS I’m sitting here.

RM: Well if a movie character turned to the screen and said, you know, “What do you think of that?” and the audience realized he’s talking to them– It’s a technique.

EB: LIke Groucho Marx. He’ll talk to the screen at you.

GZ: It’s a tough one. I don’t know if we would do it. I mean, it’s…

RM: Well you’d have to do it carefully.

GZ: In the right game, at the right time.

RM: Like, I don’t think there are many other examples in Metal Gear Solid where that occurred — I think that was one of the few — but it was really cool when they did it because it was so unique and different.

GZ: I almost wonder, like — it’s more philosophical, but isn’t stuff like Guitar Hero doing that on a continuous basis?

JZ: Yeah kind of.

GZ: LIke it’s continually feeding you information. I was thinking first back to Parappa, “Ok everyone: Chop chop kick!” It’s telling you what to do, and you’re doing it, right? And it’s sort of almost like the wall is completely broken, but in that case you really feel like you’re playing a game.

EB: Or like have you ever played Seaman? Where you’re talking?

GZ: That’s the craziest game ever.

RM: That game’s not even a game.

GZ: Sure it is!

RM: It’s more of a simulator…

EB: A therapist for some people, I’ve heard…

RM: …of a virtual creature who insulted you at every turn.

GZ: Yoot Saito was trying to do another game on iPhone, but they wouldn’t let him, where you have this monkey.

EB: Really? Wow.

GZ: Oh, it’s hilarious. If you search– it’s like this primate guy that you would kinda… [Unclear] sent those links around? It’s on Kotaku. Search Yoo Saito on Kotaku.

RM: It’s like a real monkey that you can make do all kinds of…

GZ: Yeah, it’s odd.

RM: Very strange things…

GZ: There’s also a Seaman for the iPhone, but Apple said, “No way in hell.”

RM: Did they?

GZ: Apparently they did.

RM: That’d be a pretty cool iPhone game.

TIME

JZ: All right, guys. Thanks a lot! :D

EB: Thanks!

I had the privilege of participating in a conference call yesterday where the producers of NHL 2K9 fielded questions submitted by the gaming media. The whole thing has been recorded for your listening pleasure, with the exception of about 20 seconds in the middle where the call dropped out, most likely due to all this hurricane action we’ve been getting.

Producer Ben Bishop and online producer Jay Iwahashi gave some candid and interesting answers to our questions. The big concept for this year’s game is that it’s “different” from last year’s game and is supposed to be a lot easier to just pick up and play. They also lay claim to the first and, so far, only hockey title for the Wii, which they give the impression is their favorite version of the game. I’ll let the men speak for themselves:

I don’t think it showed, but I was completely flustered when I conducted this interview. That’s not an excuse, that’s testament to how absolutely blown away I was when Andrew and I finished our thirty minutes with the game. I’m just glad that every question wasn’t, “Hey, remember when that was awesome, like 30 minutes ago, and… tell me about that awesome.”

Click the jump for Pete Hines’ take on Fallout 3’s Achievements, violence, and why Fallout was better than Fallout 2.

Before we start, you should probably watch the Fallout 3 trailer below, since 1. we talk about it a lot, and 2. it’s hilariously… awesome.

Zungre: Pete, what attracted you to the Fallout series, originally?

Pete Hines: We were looking for something else to do, besides the Elder Scrolls. We talked about what kind of game we wanted that to be and, honestly, it was just the discussion that nobody’s doing anything with Fallout. And we really love that kind of game and it sort of fits with some of the things we like to do well, but it’s very different at the same time. And “wouldn’t it be cool if we got that.” We talked with our senior management about it and they went out and got it for us.

Zungre: Was it easy to get people excited about doing a game like Fallout?

Pete Hines: (chuckling) Yeah. Absolutely. That was like a no-brainer sell. Everybody was like, “Oh my God, I can’t wait, when can we start?”

Zungre: Were you a fan of the game when it came out?

Pete Hines: Absolutely. Actually, I was a journalist back then and Interplay was one of my companies. I still have a Fallout 2 shrink-wrapped box, never been opened. I was a big fan, actually more of [Fallout] than [Fallout 2].

Zungre: Why so?

Pete Hines: For me it was the tone.

Zungre: Because I jumped in on Fallout 2, and then went back to the original.

Pete Hines: You know what, there was the stuff in Fallout 2, you know, I liked Fallout 1’s more serious treatment, not the Monty Python references, not going overboard with the sexual references, like with the porn star. That wasn’t what I enjoyed most about the first one. The first one I liked, you know, the storytelling and the violence and the combat and that kinda stuff. That, sort of, stuck with me more than the second one.

The violence in Fallout (top) is very present in Fallout 3 (bottom).

Zungre: Well, one thing I noticed when we saw the trailer, which was amazing by the way, hilarious…

Pete Hines: Thanks.

Zungre: …was what the announcer said when he was talking to little Sally. “Hey little Sally, you can find that special someone in the vault” and repopulate the earth and it shows the babies popping out. And she’s all unsettled. But does that play a part in the game? What’s the sexual tone of the game?

Pete Hines: It’s pretty mild, we don’t go overboard. We focused more on the violence and the struggle to survive in this world, as opposed to people trying to make a living as porn stars or whatever. It’s 200 years after the war and the world is not doing well. Humanity is not making a comeback, they’re barely hanging on. So it’s more about survival, as opposed to whackity-schmackity jokey stuff.

It doesn’t get any more not-whackity-schmackity than the nuke launcher…

…also found in replica form at Bethesda’s booth.

Zungre: Okay, so you’re not going overboard with the satirical.

Pete Hines: No that was really more designed to be like, you’re watching it as if it was made pre-war. They make a commercial where they don’t even know, they don’t even realize that that’s not appropriate and the dad and the daughter, you know, exchanging that really uncomfortable glance, as Dad’s thinking about his little girl and her repopulating the planet.

Zungre: Did you have a hand in creating that trailer?

Peter Hines: I did actually. I had this idea and I was talking with Todd and Emil Pagliarulo, who is our lead designer, in his office and I was like, “I want to do our trailer and I want to do a live action thing.” And I talked to the ad firm and they were like, “we love that idea, can you write it up?”

Zungre: Yeah, that’s awesome.

Peter Hines: So I wrote up the whole thing for it and they went and said, “uh, what you proposed would be awesome and it’d cost a bazillion dollars.”

Zungre: (laughs).

Peter Hines: And so they said, “But we can take [your idea] and shoot it on a single set and it would be easier to do.” And I was like, “Alright, well let me see that.” So they took what I did and turned it into more of a single set.

Mine was a vault tech salesman driving down the street in the car and looking at the white picket fences in the neighborhood and then coming into the houses. So they took that vibe and did it in a single location and we worked back and forth with them and came up with [the trailer]. But it was a ton of fun to put together, honestly.

Zungre: It was super-fun to watch.

Pete Hines: Oh, you know, no bones about it, we’re immensely proud of it. It really nailed what we think is fun about the game: this optimism and this, sort of, warped sense of reality, and then post nuclear violence gone crazy set to funny Bob Crosby music.

Zungre: Right, exactly. What about the moral choices you make in the game, I remember hearing that stressed a whole lot. There seems to be a lot of games that make you make moral choices and they punish or reward you accordingly, but what separates Fallout 3 from those other games? And did you want to make the player feel something when they make a choice?

Pete Hines: Absolutely, yeah, we definitely wanted it to be about “in the moment.” Like you’re presented with dialogue options, you’re presented with choices on how your going to complete this quest, and, you know, what are you going to do? It’s like, “God, I’m really not sure if I feel comfortable doing X or Y”, or you know, maybe it’s really funny because it’s really evil. “I totally have to do that, just to see what happens.”

It’s more about presenting the player with interesting choices that are obvious and seeing which way they want to go and having that be satisfying. It’s also fun to allow the player to see if they can figure out their own way of doing stuff and then account for that. So like, “oh, I don’t wanna do that, I’m going to try this. I’m gonna see what happens if I kill this guy.” And then the game has planned on that and reacted to it.

Zungre: Really…

Pete Hines: You think, “oh I’m going to kill this guy, the quest giver, and then there’s nobody for me to go back to and finish the quest.” But we steer you in a different direction. So we try to account for letting you be who you want to be.

Zungre: Right, because in Oblivion there were people that you couldn’t kill, right?

Pete Hines: There were a lot of essential characters, and we try as much as possible for this one to account for things like character death.

Zungre: So it will redirect you, so if I cap the mob boss…

Pete Hines: Not in every single case, but in a lot of cases [if] the guy who gave you the quest ends up getting killed there’s a plan B. His successor or somebody else ends up being the guy you finish things with.

Zungre: Fantastic. Now do you have any affection for [Vault Boy]?

Pete Hines: I mean, I love him. He’s everything you need to know about Fallout.

Vault Boy giving his good friend Pete Hines an affirming shoulder squeeze.

Zungre: It really sets the tone, right?

Pete Hines: Yeah it does, totally.

Zungre: I was actually going to get a t-shirt in high school with Vault Boy on it, but I never ended up doing it.

Pete Hines: Vault Boy is a huge part of what makes Fallout, Fallout. Yeah, I mean, he’s everywhere. I just think he does a great job of communicating what the game is all about.

Zungre: What about something the you’re especially proud of? Is there anything you’d really like to highlight, just you personally?

Pete Hines: You know for me, honestly, I’m really proud of the team as a whole for what they came up with for V.A.T.S. That’s the pause combat. Just how much work went into putting that together. And [for it] be part of the flow of the game and not interrupt [you when] you’re running around and you slow down and you [use V.A.T.S.] and it’s really dramatic and then it speeds right back up again. Just the timing of that and the camera angles, just how it looks and feels and plays. It was a huge undertaking and a ton of people spent a ton of time on it.

V.A.T.S. Targeting mode.

Just watching people play it [at E3] and seeing how much they enjoy V.A.T.S. mode and slow-mo, watching a guy’s head get taken off and you just start busting out laughing. Like, that’s kind of the dark humor of the game right there. Whack a guy with a sledgehammer, his head comes off, like, that’s funny. So the amount of effort that went into V.A.T.S., and knowing what those guys went through to get that working and how long it took us to get it where we were really happy. For me that’s what i was most proud of.

Zungre: And Xbox 360 Achievements, anything you like about the Achievements you guys are going to have for the game? Any favorites there?

Pete Hines: Yeah I definitely have some but we’re not talking about those yet. But there are some really good ones.

Zungre: Like hilarious good?

Pete Hines: Yeah, hilarious good, but that ties into hilarious things in the game itself. Rewarding you for doing stuff that’s just ludicrous and hilarious.

Zungre: Like stuff the players wouldn’t normally think of? Stuff where you guys were like, “Wouldn’t it be hilarious if we made the players do this…”

Pete Hines: There’s a couple that are, yeah, things that [you wouldn't think of.] Folks will know beforehand. They’ll sniff out [the Achievements] beforehand and then go try because they know what it is. But it’s just one of those things where you wouldn’t necessarily be like “Oh, I bet I get an achievement if I go do this.” It’s probably stuff that you wouldn’t even think to try, honestly. It’s stuff that if we never mentioned anything, I wonder how long it would be before somebody actually figured out, “Oh if you do this, this actually happens. Oh my God, that’s hilarious.”

Zungre: Wow, very cool. Well thank you so much, Pete.

Pete Hines: Yep, nice to meet you.

And with that, Pete whisked out of the room to tend to the many salivating journalists populating the Fallout 3 console stations. So i took this opportunity to ask Vault Boy for a picture. He graciously agreed.

To find out what’s going on with NetDevil’s upcoming MMO Jumpgate Evolution, we had a quick Q and A with the game’s producer, Hermann Peterscheck. To read the full interview and see a couple of exclusive new screenshots, read on.

A lot of people I have spoken to are unaware of the heritage this game has in the form of the original Jumpgate game. Could you tell us about that and how Jumpgate Evolution links in?

Hermann: Sure. The original game was what NetDevil was created to make. It was a major undertaking in that MMOs were not very well known at that time (this was 1996-1997) and so many of the things we take for granted were just getting innovated at that time. The game launched in 2001 and is still running to this day.

After we finished Auto Assault, there were a lot of ideas being kicked around as to what we could do next. One of the ideas was to go back and update Jumpgate to make it more modern, both in graphics and in features. When we began doing that we decided relatively quickly that we wanted to make an entirely new game and the project grew from there. Thus, the link in is that it’s a new game in the same game universe, but it is distinct in many ways.

The game is a space action MMO, which inadvertently leads to comparisons between not only other MMOs, but more specifically other space based MMOs, such as EVE Online. How does JE differ from these other highly successful MMOs and what similarities and traits will it share?

Hermann: Well, it differentiates in exactly the way you describe. It’s a space action MMO. Thus in that sense it’s like Privateer, Freelancer, Freespace or XWing vs. Tie Fighter in terms of core game play, which I think is reasonably distinct in the MMO genre.

On the other side we have the MMO-ish features such as a player-driven economy, crafting, mining, auction house, mail and so on. We also have things like factional rating, level progression, item progression, exploration and so on. In that sense we have the expected kinds of MMO features that are needed for long term game play, but we have put a different kind of core game experience as the center of activity.

Following on from that, are you hoping to take players away from those games, or to pull in people who typically don’t play MMOs?

Hermann: I suppose both. Although you have to consider your market when you make any game, I think it’s equally important to focus on the fun and experience of the game. I think that people are drawn to fun, well-made products– especially if they are in a genre they like.

Statistically, it is very difficult to pull people from a game they like. Because of the time commitment and social ties people form in these games, you really have to offer something strong to get people to transition. This is one of the reasons we feel that Jumpgate offers something special– it’s a game style that doesn’t have a direct competitor right now.

Thus, we feel that we can capture that audience in addition to pulling people from other games. At the end of the day, people will play games that they enjoy, so we’re trying to focus on making an enjoyable experience above any other strategy.

Story and plot are something people often don’t associate with MMOs. Does the story and background history in JE play an important roll?

Hermann: Yes. Certainly. The nice thing about Jumpgate is that the property has been around for many years so we have a lot of things to draw from. However, Jumpgate Evolution will open up entire new story elements for players to explore.

We are also thinking of ways to involve players in the ongoing story elements of the game. Simple examples are things like letting players take part in epic battles in order to unlock new content… that is, a server-wide, long term event. Our dynamic mission system allows us to create interesting scenarios as well, but, of course, there will also be a mainline story that leads the player through the game.

To delve into more of the actual game play JE will provide, could you tell us about some of the typical missions you might be sent on?

Hermann: Missions include combat, escort, collect, transport, recon, mining and variations on those. We’re also working on various ways to give people things to do. For example, we have a mail system that can tie into the mission system to update the player as to what is going on.

It’s actually quite a simple and elegant way of working. Instead of making and dealing with incredibly complex situations we are trying to make systems that handle only a basic set of functionality and let the complexity come from the interaction of systems. For example, by setting the hostility rating of various factions, the pilot may come across situations that are evolving and unpredictable.

The dynamic mission system can string sets of missions together to create campaigns that the player can go on. For example, a player might have to fly a combat mission, then scan a particular area and then bring back some artifact for further research. We’re trying to do as much as we can to keep the game from becoming boring.

How will roleplaying fit into JE, if at all?

Hermann: The classic game had a very strong roleplaying community, so I expect that in the new game this will be even stronger. There’s quite a strong following of players for our game and many people that are anticipating it’s release. This leads to people already forming group and individual identities. In fact, we’ve had requests from people to reserve their names as they feel very strongly attached to their fictional identities. One of the challenges for developers is to give the players who have this strong game identify ways of expressing it.

How large is the universe in JE? Will any single player be able to see and experience it all? If so, how long would you expect it to take?

Hermann: Questions of size and time are usually difficult to answer because without a sense of context it’s difficult to evaluate the answer. That being said we are expecting to have around 100 “maps” which means individual areas where people can jump to. A player is certainly able to experience it all if they are willing to invest the time to do so.

There are 3 playable nations and in order to really experience everything a player would have to start multiple pilots, but that can be done without any problem. I’m not really sure how long it would take… it would depend on the amount of dedication to simply progressing through the game. My hope is that people enjoy the experience and take time to fly around and look at things, socialize with other players and do things beyond just advancing through the game as fast as possible.

When can we expect a public beta?

Hermann: As soon as we can – or, specifically, when the game is ready.

One final question. I keep finding Star Wars references when reading about JE, be it the comparisons with X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, or in the description of how the player will have the “Han-Solo experience”. Which leads to the obvious question; If Jumpgate Evolution was a Star Wars character, which would it be and why?

Hermann: One of the things that we have said internally is the slogan “Be the Hero” and I think that really captures the spirit of the game. There are all kinds of Heroes. Han Solo is a sort of anti-hero or perhaps an unexpected Hero. Luke Skywalker is a much more traditional Hero. Then you have people like Princess Leia, Obi-Wan, Yoda who have other types of agendas and roles.

To be honest, on the other side you have people like Boba Fett who occupy the kind of darker side of characters like Han Solo. My hope is that Jumpgate is diverse enough as an experience that allows players to fill various types of roles. Personally I’m drawn to Han Solo type characters, as I think many people are.

To find out more about Jumpage Evolution, check out our preview or have a look at the the official Jumpage Evolution site.

Ripten is lucky enough to be joined by Anthony Putson, a freelance video game composer who is part of a company with over 30 years of experience in producing game audio, amalgamating into one of the largest portfolios in gaming history. Their output includes Driver 1 and 2, Rollercoaster Tycoon 2, the Duel Masters trilogy, Micro Machines, Xaolin Showdown, Clive Barker’s Jericho and many more.

We discuss every part of creating video game music, from how a freelance composer makes his way in the industry, to how you can get your work noticed. Join us after the link.

Duel Masters Trilogy (Nintendo DS)

Patrick: Hello Anth. Thank you for joining us for this interview. To start off, how did you get into writing video game music?

Anth: Hello Patrick, my pleasure. It was back in the early Nineties when I started playing around with a music program called Protracker on the Amiga, just for fun of course. But as time went by, a lot of people were commenting on how good they thought my music was and suggested I send demos to various software companies (I still have the replies).

One thing led to another and in 1994 I was asked to write my first game, which was Pinball Dreams 2 on the PC. And yes, I s**t myself! In the end I decided I didn’t have the balls to write everything, so a few other musicians came on board. I’m feeling much better now!

Patrick: Do you compose for any other mediums, or is video game music your preferred profession. If so, why?

Anth: I’m open to absolutely anything to be honest, but at this moment in time video game audio takes up all my time and just so happens to pay the bills! In the long term, writing for film or TV would be a natural progression I guess and is something I’m keen to sink my teeth into.

Patrick: How do you feel the game music industry has changed since you entered the profession?

Anth: The difference is really night and day! Technology is of course the biggest change, which also applies to all areas of game development to be honest. What we can do now compared to back then is really quite staggering, but all this technology comes at a cost.

Audio budgets for games has increased at a high rate for quite a number of years but so has the expenditure needed to stay competitive and ahead of your competitors. Long gone are the days when a single computer in your bedroom would suffice!

Patrick: Have you always been a freelance musician? In what way is this preferable to being in-house?

Anth: Yes I’ve always worked freelance, though a few offers of full time employment have come my way down the years. I think I’m more relaxed working at home, working when I want to work, and potentially the earnings can be more beneficial than going in-house.

I usually work on lots of games throughout the year which always keeps me busy. I think I’d get bored or lose focus working in-house on maybe 2 or 3 games a year. At the very least I can’t get fired!

Micro Machines V4 (Nintendo DS)

Patrick: How much control do you have over your work?

Anth: At the end of the day we are working to the requirements of the developers/publishers/licensors, but if we feel the desired direction is a bit wayward then of course we can make suggestions.

I think it’s all about getting a good balance between what they want and what we think is best for the game. Sometimes you hit the jackpot and you’re given the key to the city so to speak!

Patrick: How do developers work with you? Do they provide themes and artwork, or do you work very closely with game footage?

Anth: Every developer is different in this matter. We can receive any number of things, such as music examples, screenshots (though I think today they are called bullshots!), concept art, video footage etc. Really depends on when our involvement starts. All useful of course as we build up an idea of what the game is and where the game is heading.

Patrick: At what stage of development do you join a project?

Anth: 80% of the time I would say within the last month or so of development. This is ample time with handheld work, as usually the amount of material needed is considerably less than console or PC related projects. The earlier the better of course as no one like to rush things.

Patrick: How many games have you composed music for, and for which platforms?

Anth: I think personally I’m approaching 80 or so. My longtime colleague Allister Brimble is at over 250! (I’m still playing catch-up!). Allister started back in 1987 on the Spectrum and C64, and as I said earlier I arrived to the party in 1994. We have written for nigh on every system released since 1987! Which is a….few to say the least!

Most of our work today revolves around the DS which is a really great system to work on, though does have its share of technological pitfalls! We are licensed Wii developers which again is a great system to work on, and we have experience on PS2, PS3 and 360. So I think all bases are covered.

Clive Barker’s Jericho (PS3/Xbox 360/PC)

Patrick: In what ways does your approach differ when you produce music for a Nintendo DS game compared to an Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 game?

Anth: We approach whatever format we write for in exactly the same way to be honest. At the end of the day the goal is still the same.

Patrick: What was the last project you worked on and what are you working on now?

Anth: We are working on a number of projects on a variety of platforms. Recently we completed work for Atari, Konami and Codemasters. Two projects of which we are pretty excited about. Retro heads out there should be interested!

Patrick: How influential has the technology of consoles/handhelds influenced your work and composition style?

Anth: All of the consoles/handhelds have strings attached, so your style needs to be adjusted to take these limitations into account beforehand. It could be something like…a reduced memory budget for example, so you’re limited to how many sounds you use, or which sample rate to use. You always fight your corner to get a bit more memory (every little bit helps!)

Patrick: In which generation did you feel you could do whatever you wanted technically and musically?

Anth: Musically I would have to say this generation of course. I just think publishers/developers are more open to a wider array of musical styles compared to when I first started. Part of this, I guess, is that we have a much broader array of games available.

Technically I would choose this generation without hesitation. The technology available today is just mind-boggling to where we were 10 or even 5 years ago. The only limitations nowadays I think is actually yourself! With all this technology available, if you still can’t compose a decent tune, then I think you’re in the wrong job.

Patrick: What have been your favourite game consoles to produce music for?

Anth: I still have fond memories of my time on the Amiga of course, but I think working on the DS is really a favourite, though challenging from time to time due to the sometimes restricted memory limitations.

Patrick: Which video game/film composers do you admire the most?

Anth: As far as film composers goes there are quite a few! I’ve studied their work and methods for many years. If you want to be the best then you learn from the best.

So in no particular order; John Williams, James Horner, Basil Poledouris, Jerry Goldsmith, Howard Shore, Alan Silvestri, James Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer, Thomas Newman, Trevor Jones, David Newman, Danny Elfman, Harry Gregson Williams, Patrick Doyle, John Powell and Bill Conti to name but 16!

To be honest, I don’t really follow what other game composers are doing, aside from my friends. I just make sure I do the best I can possibly achieve. Of course I play games when my schedule allows, of which I have favourites; the Final Fantasy series, Ridge Racer series, and this last year I thought Greg Edmondson did a great job on the PS3 game Uncharted.

Patrick: Is there a soundtrack/tune you wish was your own?

Anth: I would rather worry about making my music something I’m proud of.

Patrick: How do you feel about the current trend of film composers moving to video games, such as John Debney and Lair?

Anth: I think it’s great, I really do. Though there’s not actually that many involved when you look around. I think John’s the most high profile thus far alongside Harry Gregson Williams. Danny Elfman had a small role on Fable a few years back of course.

A lot of music nowadays has more of a cinematic/film like nature and so there’s no better people on the planet than these guys. Though they do come at a cost, which is why you will only see them in big budget projects.

Xaolin Showdown (Nintendo DS)

Patrick: Did you ever release a piece of music that you knew was substandard?

Anth: Well, you always try your best with the time given to you. Usually if you’re given a shorter deadline, chances are the quality will suffer somewhat. If I’m being honest with you, I’d say there have been occasions where I wasn’t happy with what I’d written only because of the time available. But I guess they can’t have been that bad if they were approved!

Patrick: In your opinion, what were the best game soundtracks of 2007?

Anth: Aside from Uncharted, I thought Halo 3 had quite a unique sound to it which I quite enjoyed and Jesper Kyd did a cool job on Assassin’s Creed.

Patrick: Do you only write music during a game’s development process, or do you create songs first to offer developers to include in their game?

Anth: Well I never stop writing even during the quieter times of the year, mostly for personal pleasure of course and just to keep fresh until the next project arrives. Usually some of the tracks make their way to our website.

If a developer approaches us and asks for a specific demo before they commit to hire, then of course we oblige, though mostly in our case contracts are signed before any material is written. A good reputation goes a long way in this business I think!

Driver 2 (Playstation 1)

Patrick: Since you are freelance, have you had any problems with game publishers/developers in the past regarding pay, deadlines or misunderstandings of what type of music they want?

Anth: Getting paid is the worst part of it! No one likes chasing money or being chased for money, but in the end it sometimes has to be done. We haven’t quite gone down the legal action route yet, but you never know!

Getting the music style right is number one priority in our book, and is usually the first thing we agree on. It is the most important aspect after all.

Patrick: How realistic are developers when giving you deadlines? Do they generally understand how long it takes to compose and produce music?

Anth: Every developer is different to be honest, some will give you plenty of time, some will give you 3 days for example. Most are aware these things CAN take time, especially if any revisions are needed. If they don’t get it right first time, they usually get it right second.

Patrick: For aspiring game musicians, what advice can you give them in the steps they should follow to get their music considered by developers and/or publishers?

Anth: Originality is the key for any budding musician out there. Your tracks need to stand out from the crowd. Try and write alternative music to one of your favourite games for example, explaining why you chose that particular style. And write in as many styles as possible so developers/publishers can see how flexible you are.

Patrick: Thanks for your time Anth and good luck on your future projects.

Anth: Thanks Patrick.

To hear examples of Orchestral Media Development’s work, please visit their website here.

The final part of our interview explores Uncharted’s animation system, filmic inspirations, the possibility of new melee capabilities in the next project, along with Naughty Dog’s current relationship with Insomniac.

Please click on these links for the first and second parts of the interview, which saw us touch upon Uncharted’s art style, water, character creation process, and Richard’s background before joining Naughty Dog.

Patrick: The animation of Drake is extremely impressive – watching him duck bullets, flinch from explosions, and show expressions on his face is a sight to behold. Can you explain your animation system in more depth?

Richard: Our animation system is actually very impressive. It allows us to layer animation on top of each other. That means the animators can animate a walk cycle, then an upper body duck animation, another upper body flinch animation, and then our engine can blend them all together seamlessly without any popping. This allows smooth transitions between animations and gives the illusion that no two animations are the same, when in reality, only a couple poses or additives are there.

In the past, most, if not all games, relied on just going from one animation to another. This caused pops if the animations was not finished, which forced you to jump to the next one. I think everybody saw this as a problem and really focused on coming up with a viable solution.

Patrick: Is this an area that you can see improving? For instance, one of my criticisms of Drake’s animation was a slide before his walking/running animation begins.

Richard: Yes. That is something we all wanted to improve. It was one of the last things on the list for repair and we were not able to fix the problem in the time allotted.

To be fair, the reason it is not perfect is because first and foremost we cared about responsiveness. We worked very hard to make sure the player had full control over Drake. We didn’t want to give the feeling that the player had to wait for an animation to finish before they could change what Drake was doing. I think this led to a few instances which weren’t as polished as we’d like. We had a lot to do in a short period of time and this happened to be one area we felt wasn’t a huge make or break.

Patrick: The storytelling in Uncharted is another one of its triumphs, with the in-game chatter being very compelling. Are you happy with how this in particular turned out?

Richard: I’m very happy with the way that turned out. I think the more interaction within the game, the better. It really makes the world feel alive when people are talking, things are moving, birds are flying.

This is something I think all of us felt was a great addition to the game. It’s also something we plan on expanding more on in the future.

Patrick: What films inspired the game, Indiana Jones aside?

Richard: Besides Indy, we looked heavily into the Mummy and National Treasure. All movies that had that fun adventure feel to them. I’m sure most people see heavy influences from all of these. We also looked at the Time Machine for reference on how the Descendants might have looked and behaved.

But it wasn’t just movies that inspired us. We did a huge amount of research into the entire genre spanning all sorts of media from comics, novels, television and movies.

Patrick: We couldn’t help but notice that dead bodies and animals don’t react to gun shots. We understand that this was taken out for ratings purposes.

Would there be any chance of a downloadable update that would include this? A “Gore Patch” if you will.

Richard: I wish! It was really funny when it was in there. You could walk all over the dead bodies and shoot them to your hearts content and they would react accordingly. Unfortunately we had to remove it due to ratings.

I’m not sure we would be able to release a “Gore Patch”. That probably would cause some legal issues regarding the ratings as well. Would be nice though!

Patrick: In your original Uncharted trailer, Drake wielded a gun and a metal bar. Were you intending to allow Drake to use other objects in his melee combat? Could we expect this in a future game?

Richard: Yes and hopefully. That was always our intent from the beginning. Again, there was a time issue. We really wanted to focus on the main mechanics and that one fell by the way side. It is something that we all still want and will probably be trying very hard to incorporate into the second version. So, who knows? Keep your fingers crossed!

Patrick: Lastly, what kind of relationship do you now have with Insomniac? Do you ever want to share more of your technology with each other?

Richard: Well Insomniac is still independent, just exclusive to Sony. Because of that I think it limits the amount we can share. They have their own engine created in house and we have ours. I think we still have a very friendly relationship with them where, if either of us needed anything, it would not be a problem.

Sony really has made it a point to share between the studios so all of their games are of the highest level. That is something happening between a lot of the developers these days. It would be nice to incorporate all the nice parts of other games into ours and vice versa.

Patrick: Well we suspect most other developers would kill to have the assets and game engine you have created at Naughty Dog, so congratulations on such an impressive first generation effort. And thank you very much for joining us.

Richard: Thanks Patrick.

End of Part 3. To read Part 1 follow this link, and for Part 2 please go here. You can find more examples of Richard’s work at Naughty Dog here.

To read up on Richard’s background and the character creation process for Uncharted, read the first part here. Otherwise, lets get going.

Patrick: Uncharted’s art style is very striking. When and why did you make the decision to go with this painterly art style?

Richard: This decision was made really from the very beginning. Naughty Dog has a history of creating all their art by hand. I think this is what gives all their games a very unique look. That is really what we wanted to go for on this project. We wanted to stand out from the rest of the pack. We wanted people to look on the shelves at the stores and see something that was unique and different.

I also personally think it helps minimize the creepy feeling people get when games try to mimic real life and fall somewhat short. Painting everything by hand and creating our own style gives us the freedom to create a world of our own. If we want to break some rules then we can do it without feeling awkward.

Patrick: How long did it take for this vision to take shape? I’m sure it was very important for you to make the characters look at home in their environment.

Richard: It honestly took the entire life of the project for everything to really come together and take shape. I was truly amazed how everything came together in the end. I think it’s a true testament to the talent that is here at Naughty Dog. All of us were able to do our own thing and really focus on our individual tasks.

One huge thing which I think really helped bring everything together was the lighting. From the beginning we wanted to tackle the huge problem in games where the characters just feel “off” from the environments. We decided to go with a global lighting solution which allows the characters and environments to take advantage of the same lighting, thus making everything feel consistent and in place.

Patrick: It’s been common in other games for shadows to either shimmer or have jagged edges. How did Naughty Dog achieve such sharp dynamic shadows?

Richard: That’s all technical!! But honestly, it was a huge goal of ours to make everything smooth and sharp. I think we rewrote the shadow engine like 10 times. We also wanted one global shadow solution. That is why you can see everything cast a shadow on everything else. It’s one giant shadow map!

Really though, I can’t begin to try and explain the technical end of that. All I can say is we have some damn smart programmers working here.

Patrick: Are you sick of people asking how much PS3 power you are using, or how much space the game takes up on a Blu-ray?

Richard: I guess I don’t really mind when they ask. I’m just not sure why people think it’s so important. I guess the power question is a little more obvious. If they see something great and find out it’s only using a fraction of the power, then our hope for the future looks promising.

However, I don’t really understand why it matters how much space we take up. The Blu-ray gives us the ability to do almost anything we want. It’s an amazing piece of technology. I think we should all just be thankful we are no longer limited.

Patrick: With that in mind, could you fit Uncharted on a DVD if the cutscenes were rendered in-engine, instead of being stored as HD movies?

Richard: Honestly, I ‘m not really sure. I think we have so much data in terms of textures, models, and animation that it probably would go over. I guess it is possible though.

The thing is, we never really thought about it since we didn’t have to think about it. We never held anything back, which we might have had to do if we were limited to a DVD. I never really calculated the space the game takes up without the movies or extras, so to answer this question would really just be too hard.

Again though, does it really matter? That’s the good thing about the PS3. We don’t have to worry about storage anymore. I think this question is trying to satisfy all the people who want to know if it is possible to make Uncharted on the 360.

That question will have to remain unknown since it will never happen :) Now if it did need to happen, is it so bad to go back to the days of “Enter Disk 2″! Actually it might be. I guess the PS3 is better…hmm….

Patrick: It’s almost universally agreed that Uncharted has the most impressive looking water on consoles.

Evan expressed in a recent interview that you had bigger goals for the water. In what ways could you improve upon it? Would there only be an improvement in the splash effects, for example?

Richard: Splash effects are one example which can, and will, be improved. We had some really great technology which didn’t make it into this version of the game way back when. It pretty much dealt with the interaction between the water and objects. You were actually able to effect how the water flowed as well as the ability to start and stop where the water comes from. This means changing the environment and having the water react accordingly. You can imagine the game play possibilities with something like that.

That is one example of some of the possibilities we intended with the water. Really we want the water to be as much a part of the game play as it is a visual effect. Hopefully we can incorporate some of this in a future project.

Patrick: Would this allow for Drake to swim underwater in future titles, since this was lacking from Uncharted?

Richard: Drake swimming was one of the things that was cut from Uncharted since we felt we didn’t have the time to tune it properly. Looking back, I think it was a very good decision for the game. Underwater swimming can be very slow and potentially confusing. I’m not sure it really fits with the pace of game that we want to create. But at this point it’s too early to say if we’ll ever take another crack at it.

Patrick: We noticed Drake couldn’t crouch or crawl. Though it may slow down combat, crawling through nooks and crannies has been a staple of adventure titles. Do you see Naughty Dog incorporating this into the next game?

Richard: It actually never was a feature. I’m not sure it even was brought up at any point. I guess with our gameplay mechanics this never seemed like an issue. We’re already using a lot of buttons to control Nate and we want to keep the game as accessible as possible. So whatever we do in the future we will always try to keep the controls as uncomplicated as we can.

End of Part 2. To read Part 1 please follow this link, or have a look at more of Richard’s work here.

The final part of our interview, which will hit this Wednesday, looks at Uncharted’s animation system, inspiration, the possibility of a “Gore Patch” and using objects as melee weapons, in addition to Naughty Dog’s modern relationship with Insomniac. While you’re waiting, read up on our review of Uncharted.

The third and final part of the interview can be read here. 

Richard also divulges on the game’s art style, animation, and technical details never revealed before. After his views on improvements for Naughty Dog’s next game, we wander onto the advantages of Blu-ray and their relationship with Insomniac. Enjoy this preview of our three part interview.

Patrick: The characters in Uncharted are some of the most impressive video game models to date. They look even more impressive up close in the cutscenes. Are the in-game models any different from the cutscene models?

Richard: Thanks! Nope, the in game models are the exact same models that are used in the cutscenes. They also use the exact same textures. There really is no difference between them at all.

The only difference between the cutscenes and in game is a little higher quality lighting and shadowing. Hopefully not too noticeably different. We really wanted to keep the players immersed as much as possible. This meant using the same assets across the board.

Patrick: What sets the character models apart from many other games is that it’s very hard to see a polygon edge. How did you achieve such smooth models?

Richard: That was actually one of the trickier things to nail down. It’s also one of the things that we really wanted to focus on.

If you watch the first E3 trailer that was released a couple years ago, you can actually see some polygon stepping in the head of Nathan Drake. That was the first iteration of Nate’s head where I really tried to keep the polys to a minimum for performance sake.

Unfortunately this did not hold up as nicely as we wanted. We all felt seeing any kind of stepping took us out of the experience. So we decided that the characters needed more polygons to get rid of, or at least to minimize, the amount of hard edges seen.

So really to answer the question, its all about the polygons. Nathan Drake and the other main characters are in the upwards of 25k to 30k polygons. Probably one of the highest for a next gen game. It really wouldn’t have been possible without our amazing programmers and engine as well as the sheer power of the PS3. I know that term goes around a lot but really, the machine is a beast!

That’s the end of our preview, but make sure to join us tomorrow for the first extract from our three part interview with Richard Diamant. In the mean time why not read our review of Uncharted: Drake’s Fortune, or have a look at Richard’s impressive work.

Wander into Games On, nestled in the Pacific Beach neighborhood of San Diego, and you’ll be confronted with the usual fixtures — demo stations, box-lined shelves, and monitors showing off footage from the latest titles dangling from the ceiling. Everything you come to expect from a store specializing in the sale of video games is present and accounted for, but just as alien as it is familiar.

Wide, open spaces replace haphazard obstacle courses around magazine racks and rival shoppers, games are given breathing room on the see-through shelves (Games On seems to know the difference between “display” and “storage”), and sleek flat-screens do next-gen games more justice than the smudgiest television in a traditional game retailer.

There’s a mock living room in the window space, currently featuring a Rock Band setup for patrons to play with, and an even sexier theater in the back for the games that deserve more “cinematic” attention, to boot.

Games On wouldn’t necessarily be the first store to go with the modern, urban aesthetic, but it might be the first for an independent video game retailer. Intrigued as to how such a unique alternative could work in the face of the GameStop mega-empire, I wanted to talk with owner Andrew Urbanek. Here’s what he had to say.

Cavin: So how did your store come into being? Was it born of a general frustration with the way game shops are normally run or was there one specific incident that made you snap and say you could do it better?

Andrew: Games On came about through a number of needs. I had just finished another project, so I needed something to which I could apply my efforts. The area where I lived certainly needed a good game store; and the retail side of gaming needed to grow up a bit.

That last one was really the force that has driven Games On from the start. The video game industry is just starting to mature, both from the development and the gamer side of things, but the retail side hasn’t changed in over a decade.

Cavin: What, if anything, inspired the design of GamesOn?

Andrew: My wife (who is my partner in this) and my love of modern design. Clean lines, natural materials, open space…so when we designed this store, it all came out. Other stores that we look to for inspiration were places like the Apple Store (their 1.0 design, not their current layout), SonyStyle, the Metreon in San Francisco, and the SFMOMA.

There was an early idea of hanging the games by museum wire, to just have them ‘floating’ in space, but that was obviously not functional. The ‘invisible’ acrylic shelves were a great compromise.

Cavin: What kinds of store design problems did you try to address?

Andrew: The biggest criticism I have of existing video game retail trends is that they’re a visual mess. Game boxes have loud enough designs as is, but to stack them edge to edge, floor to ceiling just causes so much visual noise that it become impossible for anyone not “in the know” to navigate.

A casual gamer, or someone who may just be looking into the hobby cannot walk into most game stores and be able to comfortably browse on their own. They either have to rely solely on the employees to help them make sense of it all, or they simply get overwhelmed and leave. This, above all, is what I wanted to avoid.

Moreso, from working in game development, I have to admit it’s hard walking into a store and seeing your game getting buried under ten boxes of the latest big release. I wanted to give each title its space, and allow the art of each box to speak for itself rather than having to stuff multiple copies of the same game on the shelf just to get it noticed. I have found that by having only a single copy of every game displayed, it makes the store look “emptier.” Despite having hundreds of games, it still gives the impression of a limited stock, but I’d rather deal with that than the alternative.

Cavin: Did you run into any major complications when trying to set things up?

Andrew: Hah, about one every day. Honestly, check out a show called ‘Ultimate Retail’ on the FineLiving channel. Every problem that comes up on that show, we’ve probably had to deal with, from finding good suppliers to the floor not being laid correctly, to month-long delays. But these sorts of issues come up in any project of this size, be it a remodel on a house or establishing a new business.

The problem that stands out the most, and was unique to Games On, was everything surrounding our shelving system. It’s hard to go into detail, but you’d be surprised at how few moving companies will actually take on the job of moving something unique.

Cavin: If you had an underlying philosophy about this whole project, what would it be?

Andrew: Well, I’ve mentioned the need for video game retail to mature, but I guess if I were to break it down to the most simple terms, I just wanted to create a game store that I’d love to see. Really nothing more than that.

Cavin: You’ve talked a lot about location. Normally, game retailers are shoved into non-descript strip malls. How did you choose your location and what’s significant about it?

Andrew: Location was a huge concern. In fact, we delayed the entire project over a year just because we wanted to hold out for the perfect space. As I’ve said, I thought my town needed a game store (the nearest one is a few towns over) and, if I was going to make something more high-end, it had to be in a visible location with pre-existing walking/shopping traffic.

Well, this started to narrow down my options considerably. Then I had to start looking at what types of stores I’d be neighboring with. There was one space that I looked at, but it was between a dentist and an escrow agency. Nobody shops after a root canal.

Cavin: What kind of stock are you planning on carrying? New systems? Old systems? Rare stuff?

Andrew: Right now we are only focusing on current generation consoles and handhelds. That was a decision that had to be made early on. Even though the store was going to have a lot of space to work with, it could rapidly get over-filled if we decided to build a stock of previous generations, and I wouldn’t want to have to have too limited a selection in any field.

Additionally, the design focus, both physical and financial, would have been drastically different if I wanted to create the best used/retro game store possible. I know a lot of hardcore gamers aren’t thrilled with that, but it was one way or the other. In the coming year, I want to start carrying import titles, but, again, will only do so if I can offer a fairly comprehensive selection, which means finding a good import distributor. Know any?

Cavin: Afraid I don’t, but that brings up a good question. How else do you plan to compete with established retailers?

Andrew: Do things better. In any business, there are only a few ways to truly compete. This generally boils down to either doing things cheaper, or doing things better. The video game retail market is an interesting one in that prices are generally set. A Wii is $250, a 40 Gig PS3 is $400, new games are $50 or $60. There’s not a lot of room for competitive pricing outside of bundles and repeat shopper incentives.

Instead, I’m working to make shopping at Games On a vastly different experience than the leading video game chain. Heck, since I’m not constrained by corporate design decisions, I’ve been able to make just stepping into the store something different.

Cavin: So, what would you ask of someone who walks into your store to apply for a job?

Andrew: Well, first I’d say that we’re not hiring yet, though that may change soon. We do have a fairly standard application (thank you, online templates) except I’ve added one section. I ask the applicant to name three great games from every system from the current and previous generation (Dreamcast to PS3, basically).

This serves two functions. First, I certainly would like video game enthusiasts behind the counter, but I’m more concerned with system and genre bias. I’d rather have someone who doesn’t know much about games, but is eager to learn than someone who leads their clan in kills but looks down on platformers.

Cavin: If it’s successful, do you have any plans for expansion? Have you thought about other cities or regions of the country? Your store has an “urban chic” vibe to it. Are there places you don’t think it would fly?

Andrew: First things first, gotta get one store up and running. At least, that’s what I keep getting told. Yeah, there are thoughts (read: dreams) of expansion. First a few more locally, then hitting some other urban/suburban markets. Then ????. Then World Domination. Still working on a few steps, though.

As for places that it wouldn’t fly, that’s an interesting one. At first, yes, I think the store would really only work in certain neighborhoods, but over time the gentrification of pretty much everywhere in the states allows “urban chic” to show up where it otherwise wouldn’t. Heck, twenty years ago Smallville would have laughed at the thought of paying $5 for some Frappemochasspresso thing, but marketing and expansion happens.

Only having opened in the past couple of weeks, Games On has already received a genuinely positive response. Urbanek says,”Most people just can’t believe it’s a game store, a lot of ‘finally a game store here…we needed one,’ most are surprised that we don’t charge any more for the games, and everyone seems to love the design.”

As attractive and well run as it seems to be, a labor of love like this has an uphill battle to face. Evil conglomerates loom high overhead and business these days is never quite fair to the little guy, but if you see yourself patronizing Games On in the future, you can find it at the following address:

953 Garnet Avenue
San Diego, CA 92109

Hours are currently 11AM-8PM every day except Monday, when the store is closed. Games On can be contacted at 858-272-4212.